1 00:00:04,430 --> 00:00:01,960 so there I was the other day just 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:04,440 sitting at home enjoying me afternoon 3 00:00:11,060 --> 00:00:06,330 watching a little bit of TV catching up 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:11,070 on some work writing some notes and I 5 00:00:15,259 --> 00:00:13,530 thought to myself that's funny my right 6 00:00:18,410 --> 00:00:15,269 shoulder seems to be a little bit sore 7 00:00:21,710 --> 00:00:18,420 well nothing to worry about a couple of 8 00:00:24,470 --> 00:00:21,720 hours go by keep doing some work then oh 9 00:00:26,990 --> 00:00:24,480 it's like somebody broke into the house 10 00:00:30,650 --> 00:00:27,000 with a sledgehammer and whacked me in 11 00:00:37,100 --> 00:00:30,660 the arm for some reason my shoulder just 12 00:00:40,069 --> 00:00:37,110 went from calm to pain not good very not 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:40,079 good my lost mobility couldn't raise my 14 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:45,210 arm and that night was just sleepless 15 00:00:52,970 --> 00:00:50,250 with pain really not good so I go to the 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:52,980 doctor as soon as I walk in and he asked 17 00:00:56,389 --> 00:00:54,210 me to raise my arm and I can't he said 18 00:01:00,250 --> 00:00:56,399 ah you've you've hurt your deltoid 19 00:01:05,539 --> 00:01:00,260 muscle okay great going home an x-ray so 20 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:05,549 x-ray fine if a lady says now I want you 21 00:01:10,990 --> 00:01:08,130 to raise your arm right up here and ah I 22 00:01:16,399 --> 00:01:11,000 know it's okay we'll try another way 23 00:01:18,289 --> 00:01:16,409 there's a point to this story so next 24 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:18,299 day the results came back I couldn't be 25 00:01:21,469 --> 00:01:19,890 there I couldn't go to the doctor to get 26 00:01:25,060 --> 00:01:21,479 the results because I was doing the TV 27 00:01:28,719 --> 00:01:25,070 studio there I was in the TV studio 28 00:01:31,399 --> 00:01:28,729 completely doped up with painkillers 29 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:31,409 flying what a great day it was I don't 30 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:35,820 know what was happening ah but to the 31 00:01:39,109 --> 00:01:36,990 audience when they see it at home 32 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:39,119 they'll never know I'll never know that 33 00:01:44,810 --> 00:01:41,700 I was in pain and I couldn't really move 34 00:01:46,249 --> 00:01:44,820 my arm but that's TV for you there is a 35 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:46,259 point of this story I we're getting 36 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:49,320 there so a few days pass and I'm finally 37 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:50,490 get back to the doctor to get the 38 00:01:55,639 --> 00:01:53,250 results back and he says well you know 39 00:01:57,109 --> 00:01:55,649 it's a tiny little bit of arthritis in 40 00:01:59,450 --> 00:01:57,119 your shoulder or it could be calcium 41 00:02:01,370 --> 00:01:59,460 buildup what couple years ago I had a 42 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:01,380 calcium buildup which was fixed so it's 43 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:03,210 probably a little reoccurrence of that 44 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:05,310 but the main problem is soft tissue 45 00:02:10,999 --> 00:02:07,700 damage which is of course min time I've 46 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:11,009 strained or pulled or the deltoid muscle 47 00:02:15,339 --> 00:02:11,810 up there 48 00:02:17,949 --> 00:02:15,349 ouch fine writes me out a prescription 49 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:17,959 for some anti-inflammatory tablets great 50 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:19,610 that'll help calm things down a little 51 00:02:23,770 --> 00:02:21,620 bit and even today I'm getting more 52 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:23,780 mobility back so that's great go up to 53 00:02:28,540 --> 00:02:26,330 the pharmacy and the same shopping mall 54 00:02:29,979 --> 00:02:28,550 where the doctor is and while i'm 55 00:02:31,809 --> 00:02:29,989 waiting for the prescription to be 56 00:02:37,210 --> 00:02:31,819 filled out i'm just looking around the 57 00:02:39,070 --> 00:02:37,220 shelves and or ear candles so I mean 58 00:02:42,070 --> 00:02:39,080 there's a big box of them I pull out a 59 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:42,080 packet and I'm looking at them I can't 60 00:02:46,620 --> 00:02:44,450 believe this can't believe it up comes 61 00:02:49,870 --> 00:02:46,630 the friendly pharmacist assistant 62 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:49,880 nice-looking young bloke and says can I 63 00:02:55,780 --> 00:02:52,910 help you and I say what I can't believe 64 00:02:57,910 --> 00:02:55,790 you're selling these the next five 65 00:02:59,589 --> 00:02:57,920 minutes was a case of him trying to 66 00:03:01,089 --> 00:02:59,599 convince me but they good and they work 67 00:03:03,490 --> 00:03:01,099 and me trying to convince him that 68 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:03,500 they're rubbish and they're dangerous in 69 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:05,000 the end he said well you're entitled to 70 00:03:14,140 --> 00:03:09,530 your opinion fuming I left the pharmacy 71 00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:14,150 a-frame picked up my prescription so the 72 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:16,790 point to this story the point to this 73 00:03:24,069 --> 00:03:19,910 story and as we've said on the skeptic 74 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:24,079 zone before you cannot trust advice that 75 00:03:32,830 --> 00:03:28,480 you receive in an Australian pharmacy 76 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:32,840 it's sad but true if you can walk into a 77 00:03:38,110 --> 00:03:34,609 pharmacy and get advice that's sticking 78 00:03:43,990 --> 00:03:38,120 a candle in your ear is a healthy thing 79 00:03:47,340 --> 00:03:44,000 to do then you simply cannot trust the 80 00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:47,350 advice you receive in an Australian 81 00:04:04,610 --> 00:03:52,750 pharmacy the skeptic Zone episode number 82 00:04:21,980 --> 00:04:07,770 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 83 00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:25,680 yes it's the skeptic zone and that 84 00:04:31,050 --> 00:04:27,880 introduction was a little tribute to 85 00:04:32,670 --> 00:04:31,060 George rub I like the way but George 86 00:04:35,790 --> 00:04:32,680 does these programs not that I'm going 87 00:04:39,690 --> 00:04:35,800 to copy him too much but you know coming 88 00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:39,700 up on this week's show Maynard with his 89 00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:42,040 spooky action now this is a very 90 00:04:47,660 --> 00:04:43,600 interesting interview he's got lined up 91 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:47,670 for us he's going to talk to a laughter 92 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:49,750 expert and you can probably hear me 93 00:04:59,160 --> 00:04:50,920 getting ready in the background to do 94 00:05:02,430 --> 00:04:59,170 this no this right my little after 95 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:02,440 machine about the benefits of laughter 96 00:05:09,210 --> 00:05:05,640 now made me a bit of a skeptical guy 97 00:05:11,580 --> 00:05:09,220 I've always thought that people 98 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:11,590 spruiking the health benefits of simply 99 00:05:15,990 --> 00:05:13,240 laughing we're not really on the right 100 00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:16,000 track but I think this lady is she's not 101 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:18,220 claiming too much she's more or less 102 00:05:21,990 --> 00:05:20,260 saying a good laugh is just good for you 103 00:05:24,180 --> 00:05:22,000 makes you feel better and helps you get 104 00:05:27,060 --> 00:05:24,190 through life and sounds like good advice 105 00:05:30,990 --> 00:05:27,070 to me anyway make up your own mind when 106 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:31,000 Maynard speaks to Helena Grover from the 107 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:34,510 laughter strategies well might be good 108 00:05:39,750 --> 00:05:37,240 for a laugh anyway and following that 109 00:05:42,210 --> 00:05:39,760 dr. ray cheer apports now Richie was 110 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:42,220 recently in Melbourne where she visited 111 00:05:48,270 --> 00:05:45,370 the Walter and Eliza Hall institute a 112 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:48,280 very famous Institute and spoke to PhD 113 00:05:55,250 --> 00:05:51,760 student Linda hutto about cancer 114 00:05:57,690 --> 00:05:55,260 research and which is really right up 115 00:06:00,390 --> 00:05:57,700 rach's alley because she's into her cell 116 00:06:03,420 --> 00:06:00,400 biology and heart research so it's for 117 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:03,430 her was a fascinating look into some 118 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:05,290 other people doing similar sorts of 119 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:08,110 research and for us well we reap the 120 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:09,400 benefits with a very interesting 121 00:06:13,670 --> 00:06:11,830 interview and we also find out about 122 00:06:16,820 --> 00:06:13,680 fresh science 123 00:06:19,969 --> 00:06:16,830 and following on from that we have dr. 124 00:06:23,950 --> 00:06:19,979 rachey on the radio and I think she has 125 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:23,960 a bit of a rant really coming up soon 126 00:06:30,110 --> 00:06:27,690 well okay enough from me it's time to 127 00:06:31,790 --> 00:06:30,120 run downstairs it's cold today in Sydney 128 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:31,800 it's still cold today in Sydney next 129 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:32,970 week it's going to be boiling hot in Las 130 00:06:37,189 --> 00:06:34,530 Vegas but right now it's cold today in 131 00:06:39,830 --> 00:06:37,199 Sydney hot coffee that'll do me today 132 00:06:55,700 --> 00:06:39,840 hot coffee and I'll let you enjoy the 133 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:00,420 here's Maynard spooky action at a 134 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:05,730 I guess you've all heard by now that the 135 00:07:10,620 --> 00:07:08,680 world's first tickle spa allegedly is 136 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:10,630 opening in Spain where people can get 137 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:12,430 tickled and feel better about it so I 138 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:14,260 thought let's talk to someone whose job 139 00:07:19,380 --> 00:07:17,710 is to be a laughter strategist it's a 140 00:07:22,610 --> 00:07:19,390 Helen Grover hi Helen Grover how are you 141 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:22,620 good good man that its Helene cries okay 142 00:07:28,250 --> 00:07:25,510 Helene Grove opens got an e on the end 143 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:28,260 of it there no no range it's of course 144 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:32,250 now as a professional laughter ologist 145 00:07:38,010 --> 00:07:34,810 what is your professional title that's 146 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:38,020 the therapist trainer named it I think I 147 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:40,330 work in a broader spectrum now of humor 148 00:07:45,420 --> 00:07:42,970 and fun and play and so it's actually 149 00:07:46,980 --> 00:07:45,430 categorize me actually now one of the 150 00:07:49,050 --> 00:07:46,990 one of the specialty services you offer 151 00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:49,060 which I've got to ask you about up the 152 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:51,460 front is do you do what they call ego 153 00:07:57,750 --> 00:07:54,610 management and what exactly is that ego 154 00:08:00,150 --> 00:07:57,760 management yes I've seen as we you can 155 00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:00,160 try me ocurre well I've seen that on 156 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:03,820 very laughter laughter therapy I've seen 157 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:05,050 that mention to something that can be 158 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:06,730 done and I'm just wondering what what 159 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:08,170 that is is that some sort of laughter 160 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:09,370 counseling you give to people 161 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:11,530 individually or what would not have 162 00:08:18,390 --> 00:08:15,910 found it in my work all of my websites 163 00:08:20,340 --> 00:08:18,400 and things because ego management is a 164 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:20,350 oh gosh that's putting all sorts of 165 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:22,330 connotations on it already right it 166 00:08:26,370 --> 00:08:24,190 makes it sound like you somebody's got 167 00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:26,380 an overinflated ego then we have to 168 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:29,830 manage that and I very very much my 169 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:32,110 belief is about validating people and 170 00:08:38,250 --> 00:08:34,450 not doing anything that will take away 171 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:38,260 their sense of self-worth so how hard is 172 00:08:42,750 --> 00:08:40,840 it to earn a living seriously with 173 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:42,760 something that is based on laughter 174 00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:44,770 because you know you've got to be 175 00:08:49,470 --> 00:08:47,440 serious about it but you got to be funny 176 00:08:51,810 --> 00:08:49,480 too and you've got to know when to swim 177 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:51,820 swap between the two you said it you 178 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:53,650 said it and that is such I did a 179 00:08:58,170 --> 00:08:55,390 workshop yesterday actually that was 180 00:09:00,150 --> 00:08:58,180 like that very challenging it is because 181 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:00,160 the that's why I've broadened it and 182 00:09:04,050 --> 00:09:02,050 it's not just last because at the end of 183 00:09:06,390 --> 00:09:04,060 the day laughter only comes at the end 184 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:06,400 of everything else when we've seen the 185 00:09:11,580 --> 00:09:08,290 humor we've had fun when we're feeling 186 00:09:14,450 --> 00:09:11,590 good so and laughter so is at the end so 187 00:09:16,770 --> 00:09:14,460 to try and blend creating a laughter 188 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:16,780 environment it's about to me 189 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:18,610 it's about changing people's attitudes 190 00:09:22,230 --> 00:09:20,050 about the way they feel the way they 191 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:22,240 think how they can use humor on a 192 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:26,050 day-to-day basis how to incorporate some 193 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:28,420 fun into your life because fun is the 194 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:31,270 key see laughter only happens you can 195 00:09:37,830 --> 00:09:34,770 fake it which is helps to you know like 196 00:09:39,330 --> 00:09:37,840 people didn't want it was wonder what 197 00:09:41,940 --> 00:09:39,340 I'm on about when I suddenly come out 198 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:41,950 with a bunch of laughing so we can fake 199 00:09:45,870 --> 00:09:43,720 that because that helps too and it takes 200 00:09:48,930 --> 00:09:45,880 our mind off other things and it changes 201 00:09:52,230 --> 00:09:48,940 our perceptions but it's also we need to 202 00:09:54,810 --> 00:09:52,240 have fun we need to play and the minute 203 00:09:57,540 --> 00:09:54,820 we do that then the last is more 204 00:09:59,910 --> 00:09:57,550 spontaneous and Helene what do you think 205 00:10:01,980 --> 00:09:59,920 of the idea of a tickle spa because the 206 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:01,990 laughter you get from being tickled is 207 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:04,390 as a physical stimulation as opposed to 208 00:10:09,060 --> 00:10:06,850 just mental stimulation and what's the 209 00:10:10,650 --> 00:10:09,070 difference there Oh huge actually it's 210 00:10:12,990 --> 00:10:10,660 funny I'm glad you found about this 211 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:13,000 because when i did my life to therapy 212 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:15,310 training in the states my teacher who 213 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:17,050 was this clinical psychologist who'd 214 00:10:21,390 --> 00:10:18,730 been working in the field of humor and 215 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:21,400 laughter for years she taught us and i 216 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:23,770 totally agree with her tickling is 217 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:26,620 lovely if someone asks for it like i had 218 00:10:30,930 --> 00:10:28,450 a lady yesterday in that workshop you 219 00:10:33,570 --> 00:10:30,940 said oh i love being tickled I ask 220 00:10:36,510 --> 00:10:33,580 people to tickle me so in that in that 221 00:10:38,820 --> 00:10:36,520 way that's fine but if you suddenly 222 00:10:40,410 --> 00:10:38,830 somebody feeling sad or down or they're 223 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:40,420 not you know they're not in a good space 224 00:10:43,620 --> 00:10:42,370 and suddenly someone should all right I 225 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:43,630 know we're not going to make you laugh 226 00:10:47,370 --> 00:10:45,430 and you pounce on them and start 227 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:47,380 tickling them that's very intrusive 228 00:10:52,620 --> 00:10:50,200 that's attacking on their body you know 229 00:10:55,410 --> 00:10:52,630 it's like babies you know people go oh 230 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:55,420 which equals a baby goo goo goo and the 231 00:10:59,070 --> 00:10:57,340 baby you know when they start waving 232 00:11:02,070 --> 00:10:59,080 their arms about because they don't have 233 00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:02,080 language yet if they're saying look away 234 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:05,950 leave me alone I don't like this and of 235 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:07,450 course we laugh when we're tickled 236 00:11:11,610 --> 00:11:09,490 because it's a spontaneous reaction like 237 00:11:14,190 --> 00:11:11,620 you've just said you know we're tickled 238 00:11:15,690 --> 00:11:14,200 that the body responds immediately to 239 00:11:17,970 --> 00:11:15,700 laughter but it doesn't mean that we're 240 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:17,980 always comfortable about it the Spanish 241 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:19,570 get into all sorts of things do you 242 00:11:23,070 --> 00:11:21,430 think this this whole tickle spa thing 243 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:23,080 could take off worldwide I mean would 244 00:11:27,660 --> 00:11:24,550 you like this I mean this could rob you 245 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:27,670 of a bit of an income no no no 246 00:11:31,710 --> 00:11:29,170 and with that sort of thing because I do 247 00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:31,720 a lot more of one on one now because to 248 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:33,760 me it's very much about people finding 249 00:11:38,430 --> 00:11:36,250 where their own personal humorous I 250 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:38,440 think others I've been doing this sort 251 00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:40,330 of work now for 20 years and I've I've 252 00:11:46,830 --> 00:11:43,240 discovered that you can't just expect 253 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:46,840 everyone to approach the idea of for 254 00:11:51,450 --> 00:11:49,030 them to laugh at any in the same way 255 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:51,460 everyone's different so we have to look 256 00:11:55,830 --> 00:11:53,650 at that so for someone to go to a tickle 257 00:11:58,170 --> 00:11:55,840 star look I could imagine doing it 258 00:12:00,750 --> 00:11:58,180 myself you know but what does that spur 259 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:00,760 include does it mean having Mossad does 260 00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:03,340 it mean Steve's does it mean you know 261 00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:04,750 while someone's giving you a massage 262 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:06,910 they giving you a tickle I'm not sure 263 00:12:13,290 --> 00:12:09,730 what this is Spanish back tickles fast 264 00:12:14,910 --> 00:12:13,300 look I can tell you now Helene Helene 265 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:14,920 and by the way and what is the 266 00:12:18,180 --> 00:12:16,510 physiological response that is the 267 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:18,190 benefit from laughter either from 268 00:12:22,970 --> 00:12:20,590 tickling or other sorts of laughter well 269 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:22,980 laughter of course produces the body is 270 00:12:28,560 --> 00:12:26,500 produces chemicals the first line of 271 00:12:31,290 --> 00:12:28,570 action is a whole bunch of chemicals 272 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:31,300 that get produced in the body but you 273 00:12:36,660 --> 00:12:34,120 know I have to say something because to 274 00:12:38,370 --> 00:12:36,670 me the best way to walk my talk is to 275 00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:38,380 walk my talk and to prove what I'm 276 00:12:43,070 --> 00:12:41,350 saying now I know of I know that most 277 00:12:45,870 --> 00:12:43,080 research and studies have shown that 278 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:45,880 laughter is beneficial it's meant to 279 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:49,810 reduce pain well physically it may not 280 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:52,030 because I some I have arthritis and 281 00:12:56,190 --> 00:12:54,010 sometimes I have terrible pain and I've 282 00:12:59,670 --> 00:12:56,200 sit there and do my last two things and 283 00:13:01,830 --> 00:12:59,680 it the only thing that it may do was 284 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:01,840 laughter does is create a buffer in your 285 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:04,630 brain so it blanks off the the 286 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:06,340 negativity of things and you change 287 00:13:11,190 --> 00:13:08,950 you're not focusing on the plane laughs 288 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:11,200 is also gives you cardiovascular system 289 00:13:14,940 --> 00:13:12,850 a good workout you need it's good for 290 00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:14,950 heart you know case your hard work out 291 00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:17,380 gets blood pumping in you in you know 292 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:19,660 faster and you're breathing in a lot of 293 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:22,990 air and so the physiological benefits I 294 00:13:28,290 --> 00:13:24,730 think a long being documented and 295 00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:28,300 researched maybe I'm finding that we're 296 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:30,520 giving it a little bit too much as far 297 00:13:36,270 --> 00:13:33,250 as that's concerned but by the same 298 00:13:38,850 --> 00:13:36,280 token it's great for taking our minds of 299 00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:38,860 our problems and making us change our 300 00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:41,110 mind so and as I said we need 301 00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:43,839 to me it's about we need to develop the 302 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:46,360 sense of humor because it's easy for me 303 00:13:51,630 --> 00:13:49,930 to say to you look may not have a life 304 00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:51,640 go on you know and you might be you 305 00:13:54,780 --> 00:13:53,470 might have lost the favorite person in 306 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:54,790 your life and you might be feeling 307 00:13:59,160 --> 00:13:56,649 really down and you're not going to do 308 00:14:01,560 --> 00:13:59,170 it so I have to find the ways and means 309 00:14:03,630 --> 00:14:01,570 to make you feel better and it does not 310 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:03,640 mean you know I might be well you know 311 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:06,490 it can happen but so everyone responds 312 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:09,490 differently and I've learned that we 313 00:14:13,650 --> 00:14:11,560 need to take people as individuals we 314 00:14:14,730 --> 00:14:13,660 really do look lame there's one thing 315 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:14,740 you meant a couple of things you 316 00:14:18,210 --> 00:14:16,450 mentioned there now so it may be a 317 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:18,220 distraction much the same is just 318 00:14:22,410 --> 00:14:19,930 acupuncture may be off in a distraction 319 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:22,420 yes yes and you also said that laughter 320 00:14:26,579 --> 00:14:24,010 is extremely good at helping us change 321 00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:26,589 our minds what do what do you mean there 322 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:29,560 oh that to make important well I've 323 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:33,010 noticed that look even in the worst of 324 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:35,290 dire conditions you know I went to a 325 00:14:41,190 --> 00:14:37,510 really bad time and I see my partner 326 00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:41,200 died suddenly and I you know it's a 327 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:43,829 grief process for me still ongoing now 328 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:46,810 one of the things during the worst of it 329 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:49,180 is it was the russian orthodox cathedral 330 00:14:55,439 --> 00:14:51,820 funeral which is a foreign place for me 331 00:14:57,780 --> 00:14:55,449 and very very serious very sunburned and 332 00:14:59,759 --> 00:14:57,790 and the choirs are charging in the 333 00:15:02,009 --> 00:14:59,769 charging and all of that and i was 334 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:02,019 sitting there holding my friends has 11 335 00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:03,370 friends holding my hand the other one 336 00:15:08,750 --> 00:15:04,990 sort of rubbing my tears and all that 337 00:15:11,310 --> 00:15:08,760 and i was feeling really bad now and 338 00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:11,320 then I thought to myself this is you 339 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:14,380 know I need to something and then I had 340 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:17,170 a thought I watched the priests wagon I 341 00:15:22,250 --> 00:15:19,390 was all dressed in a long black thing 342 00:15:25,050 --> 00:15:22,260 with a thing every shoulder like a 343 00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:25,060 mantle and he's waving this incense 344 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:26,769 thing around and I just thought to 345 00:15:32,250 --> 00:15:30,250 myself oh my god a beaded pregnant woman 346 00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:32,260 weight winning it tablecloths and waving 347 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:35,740 of burning handbag yeah now nobody knew 348 00:15:40,410 --> 00:15:38,170 that was running through my thoughts but 349 00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:40,420 that helped to lighten me up in that 350 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:42,420 moment if it gave me an internal laugh 351 00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:45,250 now it was not being disrespectful it 352 00:15:49,079 --> 00:15:46,870 wasn't anything but it certainly helped 353 00:15:51,329 --> 00:15:49,089 me to code and I did the Simon you know 354 00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:51,339 my mother when I sounds bits of humor in 355 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:53,860 that because to me they were 356 00:16:00,180 --> 00:15:56,290 little moments of coping mechanism and 357 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:00,190 it wasn't Ben it wasn't in it wasn't 358 00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:02,290 inflicting it on anyone else it wasn't 359 00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:04,600 imposing anywhere wasn't but it was just 360 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:07,209 my own in a world so sometimes you know 361 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:09,790 a little bit of humor in a place where 362 00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:12,220 we I've had people tell me in workshops 363 00:16:16,139 --> 00:16:14,110 that you know they've had the most jolly 364 00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:16,149 funerals and what have you that helped 365 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:18,279 the whole family lighten up and bear the 366 00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:21,250 pain of it more readily so that's it 367 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:23,320 that's the deepest level of where we're 368 00:16:28,350 --> 00:16:25,630 hurting we're human that's why laughter 369 00:16:29,699 --> 00:16:28,360 is not always the thing to do I mean if 370 00:16:31,769 --> 00:16:29,709 I'd have said there and suddenly burst 371 00:16:34,019 --> 00:16:31,779 out laughing it was a been dreadful but 372 00:16:36,329 --> 00:16:34,029 my internal human mechanism worked for 373 00:16:38,819 --> 00:16:36,339 me and it's the same with other areas 374 00:16:42,290 --> 00:16:38,829 another area that I've put into the 375 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:42,300 whole prospect of laughing is gratitude 376 00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:45,250 if we're grateful for what is happening 377 00:16:49,769 --> 00:16:47,470 in our lives we feel good if we feel 378 00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:49,779 good we can laugh more I mean some they 379 00:16:52,949 --> 00:16:51,190 are me totally grateful to live in 380 00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:52,959 Australia I mean to me it's like my 381 00:16:57,389 --> 00:16:55,600 daily doesn't feel good you know and I 382 00:17:00,329 --> 00:16:57,399 live near the ocean so as a double dose 383 00:17:03,090 --> 00:17:00,339 and so it's about how we view the world 384 00:17:05,010 --> 00:17:03,100 how we view things around us and then we 385 00:17:07,679 --> 00:17:05,020 can feel good it's about feeling good 386 00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:07,689 because laughter will is an expression 387 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:10,720 of feeling good it's I think so there's 388 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:12,850 a lot in it you know life is not just a 389 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:15,850 haha there's a whole lot more to it and 390 00:17:20,819 --> 00:17:18,250 it's about our attitude towards how we 391 00:17:22,169 --> 00:17:20,829 view the world and ourselves Helen 392 00:17:24,059 --> 00:17:22,179 Grover I'll just run you through what 393 00:17:26,429 --> 00:17:24,069 they do at the tickle spur okay so yeah 394 00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:26,439 it would like it accurate ok right yeah 395 00:17:30,330 --> 00:17:28,660 now this from the time magazine report 396 00:17:32,130 --> 00:17:30,340 now much like any other day spa the 397 00:17:34,860 --> 00:17:32,140 treatment takes place in a darkened room 398 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:34,870 with soothing music playing and a hint 399 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:37,510 of incense now the client disrobes put 400 00:17:41,580 --> 00:17:39,850 on a pair of crinkly undies and lies 401 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:41,590 face down on the table and then the 402 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:43,690 tickling first would fingertips drawn 403 00:17:48,510 --> 00:17:46,330 along the body then a feather and a 30 404 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:48,520 minute session costs 25 euros and a 405 00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:51,010 whole hour 45 euros now does that sound 406 00:17:59,390 --> 00:17:55,840 like a great tickling experience you 407 00:18:01,049 --> 00:17:59,400 know what that evoked is a grave sexual 408 00:18:03,539 --> 00:18:01,059 experience well 409 00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:03,549 yes I'm looking you wearing funny paper 410 00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:06,700 crinkling undies essential idea I could 411 00:18:12,090 --> 00:18:09,669 think of I meant just think about it to 412 00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:12,100 be lying in a darkened room with incense 413 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:14,559 and your neurology is and music going 414 00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:16,690 and then slowly finger tickling I mean 415 00:18:20,489 --> 00:18:18,940 that in itself is very not even tickling 416 00:18:22,619 --> 00:18:20,499 it's just finger on it and then a 417 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:22,629 feather and that's incredibly sensual 418 00:18:26,129 --> 00:18:24,580 the dude is like a cover for something 419 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:26,139 else that might be going on inspiring is 420 00:18:31,259 --> 00:18:29,529 it I want to go that's good well yeah I 421 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:31,269 mean it's because I look I you used to 422 00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:32,590 used to live live with my girlfriend 423 00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:34,360 she's to love getting a ticket used to 424 00:18:37,619 --> 00:18:36,070 help help relax her at not to go to 425 00:18:39,149 --> 00:18:37,629 sleep and that that was that was one of 426 00:18:40,499 --> 00:18:39,159 her things and i guess some people are 427 00:18:42,989 --> 00:18:40,509 more ticklish than others aren't think 428 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:42,999 it's not just that you see now that you 429 00:18:47,789 --> 00:18:45,490 mentioned something very valuable if she 430 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:47,799 loved it you're in a relationship you 431 00:18:51,570 --> 00:18:49,450 engaged in that that would have been 432 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:51,580 magical you know that would have been a 433 00:18:55,590 --> 00:18:53,529 wonderful thing to happen but can you 434 00:18:57,749 --> 00:18:55,600 imagine if she hated being tickled and 435 00:18:59,279 --> 00:18:57,759 you came along and said i look i think 436 00:19:01,769 --> 00:18:59,289 i'll give you a good tickle to loosen up 437 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:01,779 your day and she would have been would 438 00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:03,730 have hates sometimes because tickling 439 00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:06,460 can be painful that's the thing that's 440 00:19:10,859 --> 00:19:09,039 true you can reach that point yes and 441 00:19:12,450 --> 00:19:10,869 also it you know someone tickles you 442 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:12,460 against your will and you're forced to 443 00:19:17,460 --> 00:19:14,529 do it they're making you do something 444 00:19:19,919 --> 00:19:17,470 you don't really want to do that's where 445 00:19:22,350 --> 00:19:19,929 i'm very concerned about that's what I'm 446 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:22,360 saying I very much believe in validating 447 00:19:26,489 --> 00:19:24,210 and honoring another human being and 448 00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:26,499 therefore we have to be very careful 449 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:29,320 what we do to their bodies but I mean if 450 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:31,090 you're going to pay good money to go to 451 00:19:35,639 --> 00:19:33,850 a spanish tickling spa and get all these 452 00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:35,649 things sounds quite cheap how much is a 453 00:19:40,049 --> 00:19:38,559 euro in australian dollars so i don't 454 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:40,059 know but you know be it's probably you 455 00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:41,440 could probably haggle a bit too I reckon 456 00:19:46,109 --> 00:19:44,320 oh I see I'd say it's another way for 457 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:46,119 this part to make a bit of money I they 458 00:19:50,399 --> 00:19:48,129 found out that anyway well actually that 459 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:50,409 they are two trained massage therapists 460 00:19:53,310 --> 00:19:51,610 that have come up with that they said 461 00:19:59,009 --> 00:19:53,320 there's no school for tickling in Spain 462 00:20:02,369 --> 00:19:59,019 but maybe they haven't looked enough is 463 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:02,379 the funny concept I me know as i said if 464 00:20:06,659 --> 00:20:04,690 someone goes to that place plays mommy 465 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:06,669 knows that this is what they're going to 466 00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:08,710 get and that's what they're doing well 467 00:20:13,470 --> 00:20:11,350 that's okay that's quite as long as 468 00:20:15,090 --> 00:20:13,480 nobody else gets the ideal you know 469 00:20:16,769 --> 00:20:15,100 somebody's pay money to go to a trickle 470 00:20:19,289 --> 00:20:16,779 spare I'm going to do it to you and the 471 00:20:22,019 --> 00:20:19,299 person doesn't want to I mean this is 472 00:20:25,619 --> 00:20:22,029 this is the thing but it doesn't the 473 00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:25,629 tickling is only a momentary fix like 474 00:20:29,519 --> 00:20:28,240 everything else and particularly must be 475 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:29,529 consensual that's what you're saying 476 00:20:35,310 --> 00:20:32,350 absolutely that's the word consensual 477 00:20:39,629 --> 00:20:35,320 absolutely if it's not then it's it's 478 00:20:41,549 --> 00:20:39,639 it's definitely a no-no well but Helene 479 00:20:43,049 --> 00:20:41,559 Grover can we see a big future for 480 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:43,059 tickle sparse throughout the world you 481 00:20:52,019 --> 00:20:49,690 reckon well i think it's it's it's no i 482 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:52,029 think this is a place for it like 483 00:20:57,659 --> 00:20:55,570 everything else but i think to me it's 484 00:21:00,990 --> 00:20:57,669 more a bigger thing in the world where 485 00:21:04,919 --> 00:21:01,000 we need to be a bit more playful and 486 00:21:07,619 --> 00:21:04,929 enter into playful humorous outlooks and 487 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:07,629 and having a laugh with people around us 488 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:10,750 and finding the humor and engaging into 489 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:13,000 them the motion main part if we can if 490 00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:15,490 we can tap into our humanities I think 491 00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:17,830 it will be much more productive towards 492 00:21:22,409 --> 00:21:19,960 laughing and feeling good this is a 493 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:22,419 lovely idea for a business that I must 494 00:21:26,970 --> 00:21:24,970 admit but I don't know she's got love to 495 00:21:30,349 --> 00:21:26,980 I mean how long can someone get tickled 496 00:21:33,629 --> 00:21:30,359 for wait look its 45-year Oh for an hour 497 00:21:35,609 --> 00:21:33,639 that's longer than i can go okay she 498 00:21:39,419 --> 00:21:35,619 said go to the loo before they go in the 499 00:21:41,549 --> 00:21:39,429 head right no I'll just ask you one very 500 00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:41,559 loaded question to finish as as someone 501 00:21:44,639 --> 00:21:42,940 in charge of laughter strategies 502 00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:44,649 Australia what would you recommend as 503 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:48,070 the funny movie to look at to laugh at 504 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:49,690 if someone says I've got to see a funny 505 00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,369 movie what one would you recommend we 506 00:21:54,749 --> 00:21:52,720 were talking about that the other day 507 00:21:56,220 --> 00:21:54,759 about you laughs yourself in your you 508 00:21:58,590 --> 00:21:56,230 know you you wet your pants and you're 509 00:22:01,320 --> 00:21:58,600 sitting there completely rolling over my 510 00:22:03,330 --> 00:22:01,330 crudeness I'm trunk oh I know I know I 511 00:22:05,999 --> 00:22:03,340 know there's been a few i love british 512 00:22:10,259 --> 00:22:06,009 humor to neither the ultimate one of the 513 00:22:12,749 --> 00:22:10,269 funniest was death at a funeral have you 514 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:12,759 seen that I I think I thought I thought 515 00:22:15,749 --> 00:22:14,049 you about to mention the early work of 516 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:15,759 benny hill there for a moment but no no 517 00:22:20,430 --> 00:22:18,090 I don't like Benny Hill whatsoever and 518 00:22:22,859 --> 00:22:20,440 for weddings in a funeral I could watch 519 00:22:24,509 --> 00:22:22,869 that forever you know but death at a 520 00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:24,519 funeral there were scenes in there where 521 00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:26,720 I absolutely did with myself 522 00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:29,240 must admit but you know asking off the 523 00:22:34,899 --> 00:22:32,870 cup that there's a lot but some of this 524 00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:34,909 just crashed but this one was very funny 525 00:22:39,399 --> 00:22:37,280 and very clever and very situations then 526 00:22:41,919 --> 00:22:39,409 you know and there are moments though 527 00:22:44,980 --> 00:22:41,929 inside sometimes a really bad movie will 528 00:22:48,010 --> 00:22:44,990 fit me off too if it's really really bad 529 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:48,020 and the acting is absolutely abysmal and 530 00:22:53,529 --> 00:22:50,330 then I'll just sit there and laugh what 531 00:22:57,549 --> 00:22:53,539 may I recommend a the 1980 disco classic 532 00:22:58,840 --> 00:22:57,559 the Apple oh it's so little known it's 533 00:23:02,580 --> 00:22:58,850 even less known in the Village People 534 00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:02,590 film can't stop the music I'm absolutely 535 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:08,480 no-one 1986a on 1980 the Apple it was an 536 00:23:14,770 --> 00:23:11,720 a British Israeli co-production right 537 00:23:17,529 --> 00:23:14,780 the Apple it's a musical and every song 538 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:17,539 sounds like another musical you've ever 539 00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:19,760 heard like it's an end and it just keeps 540 00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:21,710 em 1 bits even like a wham film clip 541 00:23:26,890 --> 00:23:24,679 it's it's very funny it's not ah I get 542 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:26,900 that I'd love to get that the Apple and 543 00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:28,730 so it was all about the Faustian tile 544 00:23:33,789 --> 00:23:31,820 and all that kind oh yeah the Apple it's 545 00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:33,799 worth a look no one has seen it it's 546 00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:36,260 very funny very high production values 547 00:23:58,090 --> 00:23:54,250 this is an EVP I recorded last night how 548 00:24:00,490 --> 00:23:58,100 you doing I'm a ghost what's up you guys 549 00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:00,500 can't possibly ignore the type of it who 550 00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:04,280 are you we're doing my EVPs of the 551 00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:05,750 result of pareidolia I'm cross 552 00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:07,760 modulation combined with the listeners 553 00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:09,950 hopes and expectations why does this 554 00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:14,000 have to do with science think you just 555 00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:22,790 got skipped agree phone well skeptically 556 00:24:34,419 --> 00:24:31,640 palm com wear sunscreen in the next now 557 00:24:39,850 --> 00:24:34,429 it's time for dr. Rachel reports with 558 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:39,860 dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners and 559 00:24:44,830 --> 00:24:42,710 welcome to dr. Reggie reports well this 560 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:44,840 week I'm in Melbourne and I took the 561 00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:46,910 time to pop into the walter analyzer 562 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:50,030 Hall Institute to talk to PhD student 563 00:24:55,870 --> 00:24:53,090 Lena hop Oh Lena has recently been named 564 00:24:58,330 --> 00:24:55,880 one of 16 Australian fresh scientists 565 00:25:00,490 --> 00:24:58,340 for her research identifying the genes 566 00:25:03,310 --> 00:25:00,500 that control the killing of tumor cells 567 00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:03,320 after chemotherapy treatment fresh 568 00:25:08,140 --> 00:25:05,600 science is an annual competition for 569 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:08,150 early career researchers that raises 570 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:10,070 their public profile and provide science 571 00:25:14,410 --> 00:25:12,770 communication and media training and you 572 00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:14,420 can find more information at fresh 573 00:25:22,060 --> 00:25:17,630 science org dot a you so here's Lena 574 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:22,070 talking to us at the wii hi i'm here 575 00:25:26,110 --> 00:25:24,050 with lena ha phone i'm at the walter and 576 00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:26,120 eliza hall Institute in Melbourne hi 577 00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:28,670 Lena hi thanks for joining us say on the 578 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:30,800 skeptic zone so you've just done some 579 00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:32,990 really fascinating research which was 580 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:34,880 recently published in the journal blood 581 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:37,130 and looking at cancers and specifically 582 00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,170 further genetics of cancers to 583 00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,360 understand why some types of cancers are 584 00:25:45,850 --> 00:25:43,520 resistant to chemotherapy or don't 585 00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:45,860 respond very well to chemotherapy can I 586 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:47,750 just start off by asking you a little 587 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:49,490 bit about the types of cancers that you 588 00:25:53,169 --> 00:25:50,570 look at because there's not just one 589 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:53,179 type of cancer is there no there isn't 590 00:25:58,060 --> 00:25:54,710 there's many different types of cancers 591 00:25:59,330 --> 00:25:58,070 there are hematological malignancies is 592 00:26:02,090 --> 00:25:59,340 what we call them and then 593 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:02,100 blood cancers there are also solid 594 00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:05,310 tumors such as you get things like 595 00:26:11,150 --> 00:26:08,910 breast cancer and ovarian cancer and I 596 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:11,160 specifically focus on blood cancers and 597 00:26:16,430 --> 00:26:13,290 more specifically a type of blood cancer 598 00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:16,440 called lymphoma even within the lymphoma 599 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:18,840 category we have various different types 600 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:21,690 of lymphoma and I work on a type called 601 00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:24,090 burkitt's lymphoma so what is it about 602 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:26,340 cancer I mean how would you describe it 603 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:28,170 to a layperson it's kind of the cells 604 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:30,570 that won't dial is how would you explain 605 00:26:35,270 --> 00:26:32,250 it so I think there are various 606 00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:35,280 different types of cancers and one type 607 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:37,470 of cancer is cancer where we get 608 00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:39,690 uncontrolled proliferation or 609 00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:42,750 uncontrolled growth of cells there's 610 00:26:46,750 --> 00:26:44,430 another type in it it's quite similar 611 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:46,760 time we get uncontrolled growth of cells 612 00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,050 causing cancer because they're not able 613 00:26:54,410 --> 00:26:51,600 to die so then we get accumulation of 614 00:26:57,140 --> 00:26:54,420 these these cells and that's what causes 615 00:26:59,210 --> 00:26:57,150 cancer so when it comes to cells dying 616 00:27:01,880 --> 00:26:59,220 there's kind of two types of ways that 617 00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:01,890 cells can die broadly speaking what it 618 00:27:05,270 --> 00:27:03,510 is called necrosis where cell sort of 619 00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:05,280 spontaneously die but what you're 620 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:07,020 talking about is the programmed cell 621 00:27:12,740 --> 00:27:08,550 death which is also called apoptosis 622 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:12,750 right yes sorry apoptosis is is very 623 00:27:17,930 --> 00:27:14,910 controlled as you say this there's no 624 00:27:20,030 --> 00:27:17,940 inflammation involved and it's something 625 00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:20,040 that's being programmed into each one of 626 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:22,320 our cells and that's why we call it 627 00:27:26,150 --> 00:27:24,570 programmed cell death its intrinsic 628 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:26,160 within each of our cells it's very 629 00:27:30,740 --> 00:27:28,170 important for elimination of damaged 630 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:30,750 cells in your body and it's also very 631 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:34,130 important for development so I'm 632 00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:38,190 focusing on a type of apoptosis which we 633 00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:40,080 call the bcl-2 regulated or 634 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:42,750 mitochondrial apoptosis pathway so 635 00:27:49,370 --> 00:27:46,170 that's regulated very tightly by the 636 00:27:52,490 --> 00:27:49,380 interaction between some proteins and 637 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:52,500 these proteins belong to a family of 638 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:55,170 proteins called the bcl-2 protein family 639 00:27:59,930 --> 00:27:57,690 and basically within the bcl-2 protein 640 00:28:02,600 --> 00:27:59,940 family we have the pro survival so those 641 00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:02,610 proteins that promote cell survival and 642 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:06,600 those that promotes cell death so the 643 00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:09,570 different the balance between these two 644 00:28:13,130 --> 00:28:12,000 different types of groups of proteins is 645 00:28:16,850 --> 00:28:13,140 important for 646 00:28:20,030 --> 00:28:16,860 termini cell death or cell survival many 647 00:28:21,620 --> 00:28:20,040 cancers many human cancers have been 648 00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:21,630 reported to have some sort of 649 00:28:27,710 --> 00:28:25,230 deregulation so so these proapoptotic or 650 00:28:30,860 --> 00:28:27,720 pro-survival proteins are functioning in 651 00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:30,870 a way that is not normal again we go 652 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:33,660 accumulation or overgrowth of these 653 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:37,130 cells which causes cancer so the way 654 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:40,050 chemotherapy works is it that it damages 655 00:28:44,510 --> 00:28:42,330 the DNA of the cell and then that causes 656 00:28:45,980 --> 00:28:44,520 the cell to recognize that it's ill and 657 00:28:48,740 --> 00:28:45,990 it goes into this programmed cell death 658 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:48,750 or apoptosis yes but there's a problem 659 00:28:53,210 --> 00:28:50,130 with that isn't it because it's not 660 00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:53,220 selective just for the cancer cells yes 661 00:28:59,480 --> 00:28:56,100 it's not um so when we hits too much 662 00:29:03,110 --> 00:28:59,490 tumor cells with chemotherapy it 663 00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:03,120 basically kills worth your normal cells 664 00:29:09,410 --> 00:29:05,880 and your cancerous cells so they they're 665 00:29:12,290 --> 00:29:09,420 actually designed to kill fast so 666 00:29:14,270 --> 00:29:12,300 rapidly replicating cells and not just 667 00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:14,280 your cancer cells so that includes 668 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:16,980 things like hair cells the lining of 669 00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:19,050 your stomach and does that explain why 670 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:20,760 you get horrible side effects in chemo 671 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:23,730 such as hair loss and also nausea yeah 672 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:25,890 okay so now that you've actually 673 00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:27,690 discovered that there are these 674 00:29:32,110 --> 00:29:29,700 particular proteins that might be the 675 00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,120 ones that are resisting the chemotherapy 676 00:29:36,980 --> 00:29:34,320 do you think that that might in the 677 00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:36,990 future mean you can selectively target 678 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:39,780 these and therefore somehow not select 679 00:29:43,730 --> 00:29:42,240 those healthy cells so I guess what's 680 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:43,740 really important about this work and 681 00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:45,450 what's what's quite exciting is um 682 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:48,510 although doctors don't yet do it because 683 00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:51,210 it's it's a little bit pricey a little 684 00:29:54,770 --> 00:29:52,710 way down the track it might be possible 685 00:29:57,170 --> 00:29:54,780 when someone comes into the clinic and 686 00:29:59,360 --> 00:29:57,180 says and they're diagnosed with lymphoma 687 00:30:01,790 --> 00:29:59,370 then the doctors might be able to look 688 00:30:03,860 --> 00:30:01,800 at the specific genetic makeup within 689 00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:03,870 that individuals tumor which which which 690 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:05,880 varies from individual to individual 691 00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:08,250 even though they're diagnosed with the 692 00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:11,640 same lymphoma and basically when they 693 00:30:15,380 --> 00:30:13,020 look at the genetic makeup and they 694 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:15,390 realize one of these genes are missing 695 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:17,130 one of these proteins are missing then 696 00:30:21,170 --> 00:30:19,170 they'll be a one or specific 697 00:30:23,540 --> 00:30:21,180 combinations of course of these genes 698 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:23,550 then they'll be able to tell before they 699 00:30:26,580 --> 00:30:26,250 prescribe the chemotherapy whether these 700 00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:26,590 pay 701 00:30:32,539 --> 00:30:29,350 are going to react favorably to 702 00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:32,549 treatment or not and that means that 703 00:30:37,289 --> 00:30:35,440 basically if the doctor finds that this 704 00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:37,299 patient is likely not to respond 705 00:30:42,419 --> 00:30:39,190 favorably to treatment then he can 706 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:42,429 perhaps suggest alternative therapies or 707 00:30:47,580 --> 00:30:44,970 not have to waste the patrons time in 708 00:30:49,919 --> 00:30:47,590 undergoing this this chemotherapy which 709 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:49,929 causes hair loss and nausea and other 710 00:30:56,279 --> 00:30:53,650 side effects and yeah ultimately improve 711 00:30:58,830 --> 00:30:56,289 the quality of life of patients so you 712 00:31:01,080 --> 00:30:58,840 might actually be able to tell we you 713 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:01,090 can probably tell now whether that Jim 714 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:02,590 is going to respond to that therapy or 715 00:31:06,450 --> 00:31:04,210 not and therefore the benefits to the 716 00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:06,460 patients are potentially huge yes yes a 717 00:31:10,919 --> 00:31:08,860 clear right and and as you said before I 718 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:10,929 mean understanding the differences 719 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:12,730 between what's going on in cancer cells 720 00:31:17,789 --> 00:31:15,210 and what's going on in normal cells 721 00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:17,799 means that we'll be able to develop more 722 00:31:23,460 --> 00:31:19,960 targeted therapies which are specific 723 00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:23,470 for cancer cells without the collateral 724 00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:25,630 damage that we see to to normal cells 725 00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:27,580 selena not only have you published this 726 00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:28,960 work in the highly prestigious journal 727 00:31:33,149 --> 00:31:30,159 blood but i believe you actually 728 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:33,159 presented these results in a minute in a 729 00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:35,950 pub recently for fresh science how'd 730 00:31:42,389 --> 00:31:39,279 that go that was very stressful we had 731 00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:42,399 intensive media training beforehand to 732 00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:45,820 to know how to get your message across 733 00:31:52,529 --> 00:31:50,230 in the easiest possible terms in the 734 00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:52,539 shortest amount of time I think I've 735 00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:55,600 learned a lot okay so later thanks so 736 00:31:59,220 --> 00:31:56,860 much for taking some time out from 737 00:32:02,639 --> 00:31:59,230 furiously writing up your PhD today nice 738 00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:02,649 to have it to us and until next time 739 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:09,760 dr. Rachel Dunlop is one of Australia's 740 00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:12,530 foremost media commentators in matters 741 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:13,960 concerning so-called alternative 742 00:32:20,290 --> 00:32:16,490 medicine she has appeared on national 743 00:32:22,570 --> 00:32:20,300 radio and national television dr. H E is 744 00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:22,580 available for interviews and you can 745 00:32:35,889 --> 00:32:26,540 contact her at Rachel at skeptic zone 746 00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:39,019 hello on our needle on solo scoffs of 747 00:32:43,399 --> 00:32:41,279 deployment been to an at low slung out a 748 00:32:47,930 --> 00:32:43,409 skeptic zone for weeds and stop and 749 00:32:50,930 --> 00:32:47,940 Katie Schneider a meeting for Marcy 750 00:33:04,220 --> 00:32:50,940 karna we may be from skeptic song burn 751 00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:04,230 Stevie a lake people I know Rachel 752 00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:06,179 Dunlop is on the line who's a cell 753 00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:08,100 biologist communications officer at the 754 00:33:12,590 --> 00:33:09,600 heart Research Institute in Sydney 755 00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:12,600 rachel has written a toggle in cosmos 756 00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:14,609 magazines on the line hi Rachel good 757 00:33:18,739 --> 00:33:16,440 afternoon Lori how are you I'm well this 758 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:18,749 doesn't start well if you're a fan of 759 00:33:25,129 --> 00:33:22,289 homeopathy pseudoscience makes me mad so 760 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:25,139 it's not a good is not a good start well 761 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:27,570 it makes me mad because homeopathy as 762 00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,690 you mentioned you talked about low 763 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:31,919 quantities of a substance well in fact 764 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:33,690 in most cases there's nothing in 765 00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:36,570 homeopathy it's diluted so much that 766 00:33:40,489 --> 00:33:38,340 it's kind of the equivalent of maybe 767 00:33:42,229 --> 00:33:40,499 putting a drop of vodka in a pool the 768 00:33:44,779 --> 00:33:42,239 size of the solar system maybe and then 769 00:33:46,849 --> 00:33:44,789 expecting to still get drunk okay pretty 770 00:33:48,859 --> 00:33:46,859 crazy but but homeopaths actually 771 00:33:50,690 --> 00:33:48,869 believe that the more dilute you make a 772 00:33:52,519 --> 00:33:50,700 substance they're more powerful and the 773 00:33:55,519 --> 00:33:52,529 stronger it becomes which defies logic 774 00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:55,529 it defies science it defies logic it 775 00:34:02,570 --> 00:33:59,039 defies common sense right how prevalent 776 00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:02,580 are homeopathy in Australian oh well 777 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:04,230 there's quite a few professional 778 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:05,970 associations in Australia such as the 779 00:34:11,089 --> 00:34:08,520 Australian homeopathic Association but 780 00:34:13,399 --> 00:34:11,099 homeopathy itself is everywhere and in 781 00:34:15,889 --> 00:34:13,409 fact one of the things that I've been 782 00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:15,899 sort of trying to campaign against for 783 00:34:19,879 --> 00:34:17,609 some time is that it's actually sold in 784 00:34:22,099 --> 00:34:19,889 pharmacies so you can walk into your 785 00:34:24,889 --> 00:34:22,109 local chemist shop and it's sitting on a 786 00:34:28,309 --> 00:34:24,899 shelf alongside science based medicines 787 00:34:30,649 --> 00:34:28,319 like aspirin or cough cough medicines 788 00:34:32,829 --> 00:34:30,659 stuff that have been through scientific 789 00:34:35,240 --> 00:34:32,839 testing and you know in the case of like 790 00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:35,250 aspirin and we know that it works and 791 00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:37,740 we've tested it clinically and it's been 792 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:39,510 stringently tested repeatedly and it 793 00:34:43,460 --> 00:34:42,450 works now for a consumer if they see 794 00:34:45,980 --> 00:34:43,470 homie up 795 00:34:47,869 --> 00:34:45,990 sitting alongside perhaps some aspirin 796 00:34:49,310 --> 00:34:47,879 how are they to know that it doesn't 797 00:34:50,950 --> 00:34:49,320 actually work and that it doesn't do 798 00:34:53,180 --> 00:34:50,960 anything now there's a lot of good 799 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:53,190 chemists out there but occasionally I 800 00:34:59,720 --> 00:34:56,210 strike a chemist who has dr. delusions 801 00:35:01,849 --> 00:34:59,730 okay you know I don't know if I've come 802 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:01,859 across one of those well you know they 803 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:03,930 they ask you about your symptoms and 804 00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:06,930 they ask you anything I might just give 805 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:09,359 me the stuff that I've asked for we uh 806 00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:13,010 do do chemists recommend homie up 807 00:35:18,980 --> 00:35:17,280 homeopathic remedies well i mean i would 808 00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:18,990 have to also say Lori I mean they are 809 00:35:22,070 --> 00:35:20,430 supposed to ask you about your symptoms 810 00:35:24,770 --> 00:35:22,080 by the way because pharmacists are 811 00:35:26,420 --> 00:35:24,780 trained to understand how drugs work so 812 00:35:28,089 --> 00:35:26,430 actually if you've got a pharmacist 813 00:35:31,490 --> 00:35:28,099 asking you that they're doing their jobs 814 00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:31,500 but there are some that's annoying you 815 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:33,060 know well it's it's for your own good 816 00:35:38,060 --> 00:35:36,090 Lori because you might be taking a 817 00:35:39,710 --> 00:35:38,070 different sort of several kinds of drugs 818 00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,720 and so the pharmacist is just trying to 819 00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:41,520 establish that you're not going to have 820 00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:43,020 a reaction if you take the one that 821 00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:44,430 they're giving you so there does my job 822 00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:46,560 now that's a good thing but know some of 823 00:35:51,290 --> 00:35:48,960 them I've never had one recommended to 824 00:35:53,839 --> 00:35:51,300 me but you will find in some pharmacies 825 00:35:56,810 --> 00:35:53,849 these days when you walk in they'll be 826 00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:56,820 and naturopaths on site in many 827 00:36:01,550 --> 00:35:58,650 pharmacies and they will recommend it to 828 00:36:03,050 --> 00:36:01,560 you and they don't tell you that there's 829 00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:03,060 nothing in it and they don't tell you 830 00:36:06,829 --> 00:36:04,560 that it shouldn't be used in place of 831 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:06,839 conventional medicine I mean in fact I'm 832 00:36:11,390 --> 00:36:09,570 homeopathy itself is not harmful that's 833 00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,400 because as I said there's nothing in it 834 00:36:16,220 --> 00:36:13,200 so there's nothing in it it can't do you 835 00:36:17,870 --> 00:36:16,230 any harm but if you use it instead of 836 00:36:20,599 --> 00:36:17,880 getting proper conventional 837 00:36:22,609 --> 00:36:20,609 science-based medicine you can actually 838 00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:22,619 cause yourself harm and this has 839 00:36:27,050 --> 00:36:25,380 happened in Australia recently people 840 00:36:28,790 --> 00:36:27,060 may remember the story of glorious a 841 00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:28,800 more Gloria Thomas the nine month old 842 00:36:34,070 --> 00:36:31,500 toddler who tragically died from step to 843 00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:34,080 see Mia from untreated eczema now her 844 00:36:38,990 --> 00:36:37,020 parents are now in jail her dad for six 845 00:36:40,930 --> 00:36:39,000 years in her mum for four years because 846 00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:40,940 instead of treating her eczema with 847 00:36:45,859 --> 00:36:43,140 medicine that we know works they used 848 00:36:47,540 --> 00:36:45,869 homeopathy and she tragically died and 849 00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:47,550 also Penelope Dingle who was from 850 00:36:52,849 --> 00:36:49,680 Western Australia she dies at the age of 851 00:36:54,890 --> 00:36:52,859 45 from untreated bowel cancer because 852 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:54,900 she had a homeopath um by the name of 853 00:36:59,230 --> 00:36:57,290 Francine's gray in telling her she could 854 00:37:01,360 --> 00:36:59,240 cure cancer with homeopathy and it's 855 00:37:03,340 --> 00:37:01,370 just consumers need to know that 856 00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:03,350 homeopathy does not work you call a 857 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:06,700 gibberish I do call it gibberish it's 858 00:37:14,110 --> 00:37:09,910 you say because the homeopaths claim 859 00:37:17,740 --> 00:37:14,120 that if you dilute a substance in water 860 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:17,750 it retains a memory of the original 861 00:37:24,250 --> 00:37:22,370 substance uh yeah this is something the 862 00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,260 homeopath have only recently invented by 863 00:37:28,390 --> 00:37:26,960 the way because 200 years ago science 864 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:28,400 wasn't very advanced we didn't know a 865 00:37:31,750 --> 00:37:30,050 lot of the stuff we know these oh we 866 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:31,760 thought the world was flat Rachel well 867 00:37:35,410 --> 00:37:33,950 we did and you know what we found out 868 00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:35,420 that it wasn't and then we changed our 869 00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:37,730 minds because we found evidence to the 870 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:39,950 contrary and that's the same as when 871 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:41,690 homeopathy was invented well we didn't 872 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:44,390 know a lot about the chemistry of 873 00:37:48,460 --> 00:37:47,090 dilutions we now know that once you 874 00:37:51,220 --> 00:37:48,470 dilute something beyond a certain point 875 00:37:53,890 --> 00:37:51,230 there's no possibility that there's any 876 00:37:55,450 --> 00:37:53,900 molecules left so we know that it's 877 00:37:56,530 --> 00:37:55,460 actually for the mathematicians amongst 878 00:38:00,430 --> 00:37:56,540 your listeners it's called Avogadro's 879 00:38:02,650 --> 00:38:00,440 constant look it up on Wikipedia so when 880 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:02,660 we figured that out the homeopath then 881 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:04,010 went oh well what are we going to do now 882 00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:05,570 because science is telling us that 883 00:38:09,550 --> 00:38:07,160 there's no way that there can be any 884 00:38:11,620 --> 00:38:09,560 substance left and so they came up with 885 00:38:14,890 --> 00:38:11,630 the idea that the water would remember 886 00:38:16,510 --> 00:38:14,900 the substance it was originally in now I 887 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:16,520 reckon this is a bit dodgy because 888 00:38:21,340 --> 00:38:19,490 doesn't that mean that all the water in 889 00:38:23,650 --> 00:38:21,350 the world would remember all the sewage 890 00:38:26,260 --> 00:38:23,660 it's been through all the dioxins and 891 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:26,270 toxins and you know heavy metals and 892 00:38:29,950 --> 00:38:27,890 poisons and then we'd all be getting 893 00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:29,960 sick if we were drinking it I don't know 894 00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:31,880 it's essentially there's no fight to 895 00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:34,880 explain it Rachel I need to stop you 896 00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:36,440 there you're a plight you're applying 897 00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:38,120 logic where there isn't any at the 898 00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:40,070 moment I'm sorry about that and you've 899 00:38:45,550 --> 00:38:43,310 got to stop apply what I do it's like 900 00:38:46,990 --> 00:38:45,560 when you deal with governments dolly and 901 00:38:48,970 --> 00:38:47,000 their decisions you've you've got to 902 00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:48,980 understand you can't apply logic and 903 00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:54,140 common sense right but why what is in 904 00:38:58,750 --> 00:38:55,990 our psyche I look I'm assuming 905 00:39:00,760 --> 00:38:58,760 homeopathic medicine is a case of mind 906 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:00,770 over matter and they say that the mind 907 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:04,310 can cure anything even cancer if it if 908 00:39:09,630 --> 00:39:07,510 it believes it enough 909 00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:09,640 is that what this is about and do you as 910 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:12,280 a scientist absolutely dispute well 911 00:39:15,090 --> 00:39:13,450 first of all I have to dispute 912 00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:15,100 homeopathic medicine that's an oxymoron 913 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:17,470 it's not a medicine don't say that again 914 00:39:23,220 --> 00:39:19,690 Laurie right homeopathy it's not 915 00:39:25,020 --> 00:39:23,230 medicine well that there is a concept 916 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:25,030 called the placebo effect which people 917 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:26,530 may be familiar with and that's where 918 00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:28,660 even just the process of going to a 919 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:30,640 doctor for example and seeing somebody 920 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:35,530 in a doctor's dumb you know rooms can 921 00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:38,770 make people feel better so there's a lot 922 00:39:41,850 --> 00:39:40,630 of studies been done looking at tablets 923 00:39:43,470 --> 00:39:41,860 and it whether they have a placebo 924 00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:43,480 effect and we know a lot about it now we 925 00:39:49,410 --> 00:39:46,150 know that if we give people a small 926 00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:49,420 tablet that is a blue instead of red and 927 00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:50,920 if it's given to you by someone in a 928 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:52,780 white coat rather than someone who's not 929 00:39:57,090 --> 00:39:55,090 in a white coat the placebo effect is 930 00:40:00,450 --> 00:39:57,100 more powerful so the human mind is 931 00:40:02,190 --> 00:40:00,460 incredibly powerful in that sense so yes 932 00:40:05,850 --> 00:40:02,200 there is some placebo effect with 933 00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:05,860 homeopathy but yes as I mentioned that 934 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:08,260 will not cure you perceive effect can't 935 00:40:12,570 --> 00:40:10,090 kill you and also you mentioned that you 936 00:40:15,110 --> 00:40:12,580 can think your way out of cancer well 937 00:40:18,510 --> 00:40:15,120 there's no evidence to show that either 938 00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:18,520 unfortunately diseases like that you 939 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:21,280 need to get conventional therapies but 940 00:40:26,310 --> 00:40:23,370 but also there's this concept known as 941 00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,320 where if you say you have a cold now 942 00:40:30,330 --> 00:40:28,240 most cold last between five to seven 943 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:30,340 days and if in that period you might 944 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:32,050 take some homeopathy or some sort of 945 00:40:36,090 --> 00:40:33,730 other placebo and then your cold gets 946 00:40:37,740 --> 00:40:36,100 better it's natural for your brain to 947 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:37,750 say well it must have been the pill that 948 00:40:41,970 --> 00:40:39,010 I took it must have been the homeopathy 949 00:40:45,180 --> 00:40:41,980 but in fact your your cold was going to 950 00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:45,190 get better anyway so it's not it doesn't 951 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:46,720 make people it doesn't mean you're a 952 00:40:50,460 --> 00:40:48,970 fool to believe that it doesn't anyone 953 00:40:52,650 --> 00:40:50,470 can be fooled into thinking that and 954 00:40:53,730 --> 00:40:52,660 it's a very powerful effect so there is 955 00:40:55,650 --> 00:40:53,740 some of that involved with homeopathy 956 00:40:57,090 --> 00:40:55,660 governments fund a little bit of 957 00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:57,100 homeopathy don't they to the tune of 958 00:41:02,340 --> 00:40:59,440 about three billion dollars yes well 959 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:02,350 they don't directly fund it but they 960 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:04,330 they put back about three billion 961 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:06,610 dollars into private health fund rebates 962 00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:09,250 every year but if your health fund for 963 00:41:14,940 --> 00:41:12,430 example or your doctor prescribes you 964 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:14,950 homeopathy and then you go and claim 965 00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:16,690 from the government for your health fund 966 00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:19,420 rebate then indirectly the taxpayers are 967 00:41:22,530 --> 00:41:20,950 funding it 968 00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:22,540 so that means we are paying for it as 969 00:41:27,089 --> 00:41:24,400 taxpayers when using this needs to stop 970 00:41:29,069 --> 00:41:27,099 I absolutely think it needs to stop and 971 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:29,079 I'm not the only one and in fact the 972 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:30,490 National Health and Medical Research 973 00:41:34,109 --> 00:41:32,410 Council which is kind of the the 974 00:41:36,510 --> 00:41:34,119 government body in Australia that 975 00:41:39,569 --> 00:41:36,520 advises us on drugs and what sort of 976 00:41:41,250 --> 00:41:39,579 drugs we should be taking they have just 977 00:41:43,710 --> 00:41:41,260 published a draft statement on 978 00:41:46,829 --> 00:41:43,720 homeopathy where they call it unethical 979 00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:46,839 and an efficacious and uneducated simply 980 00:41:52,109 --> 00:41:49,359 means it doesn't work so they based 981 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:52,119 their statement on an extensive study 982 00:41:57,930 --> 00:41:55,570 that was done in the UK in 2010 now that 983 00:41:59,579 --> 00:41:57,940 was conducted by a government body and 984 00:42:01,829 --> 00:41:59,589 what they do in the UK is when their 985 00:42:04,349 --> 00:42:01,839 public health fund when their public 986 00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:04,359 money is funding some sort of Health you 987 00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:07,119 know whether it be funding hospital 988 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:09,160 visits or something they do it what they 989 00:42:13,470 --> 00:42:11,770 call an evidence check and they go and 990 00:42:14,819 --> 00:42:13,480 they look at all the evidence for the 991 00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:14,829 thing that they're funding to see if 992 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:16,990 there's still good reason for them to be 993 00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:19,510 funding it and now they did this in 2010 994 00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:21,190 and they looked at homeopathy and they 995 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:23,230 took submissions from homeopaths from 996 00:42:29,609 --> 00:42:25,930 doctors from scientists and after they 997 00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:29,619 produced a 273 page report with all the 998 00:42:32,609 --> 00:42:31,119 evidence that they show that they looked 999 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:32,619 at they could find no evidence that 1000 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:35,170 homeopathy worked and so in fact they 1001 00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:37,810 were funding homeopathy to the tune of 1002 00:42:41,099 --> 00:42:39,520 four million pounds and so they 1003 00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:41,109 recommended that the government no 1004 00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:42,640 longer fund it and so that's why the 1005 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:44,319 australian government is now considering 1006 00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:49,210 doing the same thing and i should the 1007 00:42:54,660 --> 00:42:52,420 chi the compromise here would be if you 1008 00:42:56,430 --> 00:42:54,670 want to try homeopathy all right but 1009 00:42:58,740 --> 00:42:56,440 don't try it at the expense of 1010 00:43:00,569 --> 00:42:58,750 conventional medicine that's the message 1011 00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:00,579 it's very important well know that 1012 00:43:06,059 --> 00:43:03,430 homeopathy is not medicine it doesn't 1013 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:06,069 work in most cases there's nothing in it 1014 00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:08,530 and so if people want to use it that's 1015 00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:10,720 no problem it's fine each still you know 1016 00:43:14,130 --> 00:43:12,490 even if the government in Australia does 1017 00:43:16,109 --> 00:43:14,140 bring through this official statement 1018 00:43:17,940 --> 00:43:16,119 saying that it's unethical and shouldn't 1019 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:17,950 be used people will still be able to buy 1020 00:43:20,819 --> 00:43:19,210 it it won't be banned in australia 1021 00:43:23,730 --> 00:43:20,829 you'll probably still be able to get it 1022 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:23,740 at your chemist but just make sure that 1023 00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:25,450 you continue to take your other 1024 00:43:33,569 --> 00:43:28,000 medicines that work rachel Dunlop is 1025 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:33,579 crazy-mad homeopathy and I like I want 1026 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:34,570 you to know that 1027 00:43:38,610 --> 00:43:36,910 rachel is also as well as a cell 1028 00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:38,620 biologist communications officer the 1029 00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:40,240 heart research institute vice president 1030 00:43:44,070 --> 00:43:42,190 the Australian skeptics Association who 1031 00:43:45,930 --> 00:43:44,080 I love their truck loads of fun but 1032 00:43:48,420 --> 00:43:45,940 great to talk to you Rachel and some 1033 00:43:50,250 --> 00:43:48,430 sober warnings about how you deal with 1034 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:50,260 your health good to talk to you thanks 1035 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:53,290 very much Larry Rachel Dunlop homie off 1036 00:44:19,600 --> 00:43:55,810 of him how do they is there any way be 1037 00:44:24,350 --> 00:44:22,100 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1038 00:44:26,330 --> 00:44:24,360 zone I even enjoyed that episode today 1039 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:26,340 myself what a laugh wait a minute wait a 1040 00:44:32,020 --> 00:44:28,410 minute where is it where's the laughter 1041 00:44:35,420 --> 00:44:32,030 come back come back press thank you I 1042 00:44:39,020 --> 00:44:35,430 thank you may not beg you doctor AG for 1043 00:44:40,370 --> 00:44:39,030 today's episode not sure what's coming 1044 00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:40,380 up next week it's going to be a bit of a 1045 00:44:44,330 --> 00:44:42,510 mixed bag because I have to put together 1046 00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:44,340 some interesting items and bits and 1047 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:47,550 pieces to play to put out there just 1048 00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:50,850 before i jet out to Las Vegas to spend a 1049 00:44:55,820 --> 00:44:53,190 couple of days at tam nine if you're 1050 00:44:58,130 --> 00:44:55,830 going to tam nine can't wait to see you 1051 00:45:00,680 --> 00:44:58,140 there but you'll have to be quick to see 1052 00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:00,690 me because i'll be there and gone in two 1053 00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:06,230 days oh well oh well sleeping pills and 1054 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:10,400 comfortable airline seats are my friends 1055 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:13,530 anyway until then this is Richard 1056 00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:15,930 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1057 00:45:26,810 --> 00:45:22,140 Australia you've been listening to the 1058 00:45:30,650 --> 00:45:26,820 skeptic zone visit our website at www